Were you happy with the Joy Division biopic 'Control'?
Going back a bit, I really got into Joy Division through the movie Control. I’m 28 and from a different generation. First of all, I’m curious if you were happy with the film.
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ShareI was, yeah. It was pretty accurate as to how I remember it. Sam Riley’s performance as Ian, in particular, was really good. Obviously if I was directing, I would have done a few things differently. Stuff like, “Well, that’s not right, or Ian wouldn’t have said that.” But it’s a film, not a documentary. But overall, I was really happy with it. It was a difficult period in my life, and a difficult time for all the band members. It wasn’t a particularly happy period, but one that I have to talk about because people are interested in it. It was a very tragic period, and I think that for everyone involved, we’re all happier people now, at least I know I am. I’m a happier, more content person now. Part of that is just the benefit of being older, and being more capable to deal with what life throws at you.
I think when you’re in your 20s, going from adolescence to about 24, I think your life is a series of emotional storms that you have to weather. Life is more emotional at that time, and you’re less equipped to deal with what life throws at you. I always think that if you can get past 24, than life really starts at that point. I really think that’s true. Going from being a teenager to joining the adult world, is a bit of a cold shower and a shock to the system. You go from having fun 24 hours a day to joining the adult world, and you realize that things are getting serious. Part of the reason I joined Joy Division was so that I really wouldn’t have to grow up.
Suspended adolescence?
Yeah. I reached the breaking point when my hangovers started lasting three days instead of one miserable day. Once you start getting the three day hangovers, it’s like getting hit with a big stick and maybe you do want to grow up after all.
In regards to the Manchester scene in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s, could you feel the electricity in the air? That something was happening and it was special?
No, not really. It was a strange thing because we never really thought about what we were doing. We really only thought about making music and possibly making some money. The more we thought about what we did, the harder it was to write and create. Things didn’t go as well if we thought, “We’re going to write a song that sounds like this.” We couldn’t do that, so we just wrote very instinctually. We just sat around in a rehearsal room and waited for ideas to drop out of the ether. We’d sit around and talk about what was on T.V. the night before, or girls or clubs or whatever until we got bored and then we’d pick up or instruments and something would just happen.
Certainly when we first started in the Manchester scene, we were outsiders. We came from different parts of Manchester. Me and Pete Hook came from the industrial, working class part of town and Steve Morris and Ian Curtis lived in a small town south of Manchester. The scene was based more just to the South of Manchester, which is not really where any of us came from, so the only contact with that scene was going to see gigs. We’d see The Sex Pistols, The Clash, and The Buzzcocks. You’d see a lot of the same people at these gigs but we weren’t a part of the scene really, just because of where we came from. Later on, when we opened The Hacienda and Factory Records opened a club called The Factory in the North Side, that’s when the scene really came together.
As far as influences, were you a Beatles or a Rolling Stones guy? I’d peg you as a Stones man.
Yeah, I was definitely more of a Stones guy, although I do like the Beatles. When those bands were first happening in the ‘60s, I was pretty young and we didn’t have a record player in the house. I’d only hear what I’d hear on the radio. I liked both groups, but I liked the harder, more guitar-based sound of the Stones. As I got older, I’d go to youth clubs. Do you have youth clubs in the States?
Well, I guess the short answer would be no. I don’t think a lot of teens hang out at the YMCA.
It’s different in England. When I was 14 or 15, I used to go to youth clubs that were sort of two different rooms where you could go and listen to music. Downstairs was the disco room, where they used to play Motown and Stax and ska-type stuff. Upstairs, they used to play Stones and Led Zeppelin and the happening rock music of the day. I listened to both, and would hop between upstairs and downstairs. It was funny really, because in the upstairs, everyone had long hair, and downstairs everyone had short hair. Whichever room I was in, I was always a bit out of place with my clothes and my haircut which is I guess a metaphor for my career. At the time, I had a bit of an overgrown skinhead haircut.
How does the term “icon” sit with you?
I don’t know. It’s hard to see yourself as other people see you. The guys in the band certainly don’t see me as a legend, nor should they. I guess there’s an interesting story to my past and the past of the bands that I’ve been in, and the story of Factory Records and all that. We did things in an interesting and different way. A lot of things happened to us and we made good music and did it in a different way. But I don’t think I’m a legend. I think I’ve just got an interesting history.
Has the idea of heading out to country and just disappearing for awhile ever pop up in your mind?
[Laughs.] That’s exactly what I’m going to do this coming November. I’ve got a sailboat, and in my spare time that’s what I do. In November I’m going to take the boat on the Atlantic Ocean for a bit.
New Order
Speaking of your history, you’ve seen so many different shifts in the music business. How do you feel about the current state of the industry and the death of print media for that matter?
Everyone’s buying digitally. If you’re traveling a lot, it’s nice to have all your music on a nice, tiny iPod. But, at the same time, it doesn’t feel real. You can’t pick up a downloaded album, touch it and look at the sleeve and all that. It’s convenient for sure, but sometimes, things can be too convenient and it stops being special. If you can get something by hitting a button on a computer, is it as special? I don’t think it is. When I was a kid in school, we’d go out and buy a vinyl album, and it would take you all week to save up for it. You’d go out and buy it, take it home, and it was something that was really valuable. You’d stare at the sleeve and have a separate piece of art along with the music. You’d take it home, play it, and treasure that moment. You’d really crawl inside that album. It either blew you away or you’d be pissed off that you wasted your money on rubbish. So I think that magic is lost a lot these days.
Digital media has cheapened the value of the commodity. It’s reduced the value by trading that magic for convenience, and I have very mixed feelings about it. I’ve been staring at a computer screen all morning, and you get a kind of paralysis staring at the screen. Someone said, “Television is the valium of the masses” but now all we do is stare at screens. When you look at a computer screen, even if you’re doing work on it, you feel partially stupefied. Pandora’s Box has been opened, and it’s the way forward. You have to accept the change, because there’s no going back. It’s like Stereo and Mono.
If the future of the industry is in flux, what outcome would personally make you happy?
Well, I worry about if musicians can still make a living, with file sharing and all that. Someone said that paying for music on the internet is similar to putting a turnstile in the middle of the ocean. If someone’s staring at two buttons and one says “Pay” and the other says “Free” and you’re going to get the same product in the end, everyone’s going to choose “Free” because that’s the way human beings are wired. So, there’s not enough money for record companies to help out young, struggling bands. But, you’ve got to look at it from the industry’s point of view as well. If it’s going to cost all this money to make a record: studio time, the band’s time, engineer’s time, pressing and no one’s going to pay for it, that’s a situation that cannot go on. It doesn’t affect massive artists like Beyoncé as much, but smaller and younger bands, they haven’t got a chance. I don’t know what the solution is though. I guess the solution is for more people to go out and see bands live. It’s a shame though, really. It’s a shame.
- Multiple songs MySpace
