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6 May 2007

Armenian Americans battle with Los Angeles Times

FRENSO, Calif. - A well-known Fresno author and journalist is waging a heated battle with his boss at the Los Angeles Times - a very public struggle that has outraged many in Southern California’s large Armenian community.

It’s also reverberating in Fresno, not only because of the sizable local Armenian population, but because Times staffer Mark Arax lives here and is of Armenian descent.

“People I talked to locally are really upset,” said Varoujan Der Simonian, executive director of the Armenian Technology Group, a Fresno-based nonprofit that provides support for Armenian farmers.

The dispute revolves around an article Arax wrote - but the paper refused to publish - to mark April 24, the 92nd anniversary of the Armenian genocide. An estimated 1.5 million Armenians died between 1915 and 1923 at the hands of the Turkish Ottoman Empire.

The modern Turkish republic contends that no genocide occurred, but for Armenians - and many Armenian Americans - the issue remains critically important.

Hygo Ohannessian, who chairs the local chapter of the Armenian National Committee of America, said the Arax family has deep ties to Fresno and has long shown loyalty to its Armenian community.

“We all want to come to (Arax’s) aid, not just because he is Armenian, but because he has good values,” she said. “I stand behind him 100 percent.”

The latest twist in the controversy came late Tuesday, when the Armenian National Committee of America urged members to call for the resignation of Times Managing Editor Douglas Frantz, whom Arax blames for killing his story.

Harut Sassounian, a Southern California Armenian leader, and others say thousands of e-mails have flooded the Times - and they plan to continue pressing the matter.

The dispute erupted in early April after Arax completed a story on the Armenian genocide resolution in Congress.

According to Sassounian and accounts in the online political journal LAObserved.com, Arax’s article looked at how the resolution battle was dividing not only Turks and Armenians, but also the Jewish community. Some Jews feel a kinship with Armenians because both were victims of genocide, while others don’t want to damage Israel’s alliance with Turkey.

Frantz declined to comment on why he halted publication of the story. But LAObserved.com has published several internal Times memos on the issue, as well as a comment by Frantz.

“I put a hold on a story because of concerns that the reporter had expressed personal views about the topic in a public manner and therefore was not a disinterested party, which is required by our ethics guidelines, and because the reporter and an editor had gone outside the normal procedures for compiling and editing articles,” he wrote in an e-mail to LAObserved.com.

Frantz said he was concerned about bias because the writer, along with several other staff members, had signed a memo in the fall of 2005 to top Times editors. The memo pointed out that the paper wasn’t adhering to its written policy of unequivocally referring to the Armenian genocide as a historic fact.

Arax, a longtime Times staffer who currently is assigned to the paper’s Sunday magazine West, declined to comment on the dispute. However, he wrote a lengthy memo to his Times colleagues on Monday that was posted on LAObserved.com in which he defended himself and said he deserved a public apology from Frantz.

In the memo, Arax said an internal investigation found the reasons cited by Frantz to be baseless. He offered no evidence of this finding, however.

After Frantz stopped the story, a Times reporter in the Washington bureau used some of Arax’s reporting to fashion a different story that appeared on the paper’s front page April 21.

An April 26 memo by Editor James O’Shea to the staff that also was posted on LAObserved.com said the published story “was the best one.” O’Shea noted that Arax’s story was not killed but had been sent back for additional reporting. Arax could have had a double byline but rejected it, O’Shea wrote.

Bill Erysian, coordinator of grants and international projects for the Armenian Agribusiness Education Fund, a nonprofit based at California State University, Fresno, said he has known Arax since college. Arax has always been unbiased - even on Armenian issues - Erysian said.

“The whole irony to this situation is Mark Arax is not an activist, not a `professional Armenian,’” Erysian said.

Arax, however, has taken public stances on other issues. Last year, he tangled publicly with Fresno County Supervisor Bob Waterston at a meeting of the Local Agency Formation Commission, and also criticized the LAFCO board for its failure to discuss urban sprawl.

Arax also wrote a letter to the editor criticizing The (Fresno) Bee after it offered its Fresno Unified school board endorsements. The Bee had not endorsed his sister, Michelle Asadoorian, who later went on to win one of the trustee seats.

Local Armenians maintain that Frantz’s logic in the matter is flawed. If his claim that Arax’s signature on a memo showed he has a pro-Armenian bias, then the same claim could apply to other ethnic minorities.

“Are you saying no Jewish people can write about the Holocaust?” asked Barlow Der Mugrdechian, a lecturer in Armenian studies at Fresno State. “That seems a little ludicrous.”

Some Armenian activists feel Frantz has his own bias on the issue. Before becoming managing editor of the Times, he was a longtime correspondent in Istanbul, Turkey, and is scheduled to moderate a panel discussion this month in Istanbul titled “Turkey: Sharing the Democratic Experience.”

In the end, many in the Armenian community say, something has to give in the dispute.

Said Sassounian, the Armenian leader who first rallied a defense for Arax: “There’s no way Douglas Frantz and Mark Arax can exist in the same newsroom after what has happened. One of them has to go, and hopefully not the one who is innocent, but the one who is guilty.”

—John Ellis [McClatchy Newspapers (MCT)]

Fire Frantz simple as that.

Barlow says it best in this article:

“Are you saying no Jewish people can write about the Holocaust?” asked Barlow Der Mugrdechian, a lecturer in Armenian studies at Fresno State. “That seems a little ludicrous.”

Comment by Rich — May 6, 2007 @ 10:50 am

It’s a shame that the main newspaper in California, home of the World’s largest Armenian community abroad, has a clearly anti-Armenian editor. No apology would settle this. Just get rid of Frantz!

Comment by Maciej from Palo Alto, CA — May 6, 2007 @ 1:57 pm

A guy in Fresno is complaining because a SOUTHERN CALIF---Los Angeles---paper is not publishing his article? Publish it if he must in Fresno! Frankly, however, I am quite tired of op ed pieces about subjects having nothing to do with us.  I would say an article about genocide on the Armenians by Turks way back in 1915 has little relevance to we Americans, and by extension, the American newspapers. Moreover, I am tired of foreign-born folk coming here and protesting here when they should go back to where they hail from and protest THERE. Take all your grief, your angst, your anger at your former home & let it out where it belongs--in that country! Whether you be Armenia, Cuban, Mexican, whatever.  I just am sick of these folks doing it here.

Comment by kathy from Chicagoland — May 6, 2007 @ 7:27 pm

to Chicagoland:
1. I hope you are aware of the fact that technically we *all* are foreigners - the US is the land of emigrants, and you don’t sound like a Native American…
2. If the US has the aspiration of being the World’s leader, it should care about the moral authority, and isolationism would have brought us to the hegemony of Nazism and Communism in the rest of the world, making everybody’s life (including US) a nightmare.
3. As to the Genocide issue - it’s anything but “just 1915” - it’s about today’s Turkey - a country pursuing the policy of ‘genocide complete’ (as genocide scholars put it) - i.e. erasing not only particular people, but also the memory about them. It’s also about shaping the Middle East, about preventing future genocides across the World, and lots more.

Whether you like it or not - we live a era of globalization, we can’t just sit here and wonder why the oil prices go up and why the jihadists attack our buildings. I’d advise you to think twice before categorizing things into “what has something to do with us, and what’s not”.

Comment by Maciej from Palo Alto, CA — May 6, 2007 @ 8:29 pm

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I use to live in Chicago for many years, seems bigotry is still prevelent in the Windy City. It’s a good thing Mayor Daley is a worthy person who acknowledges the Armenian genocide, and understands how much Armenians have contributed to the very fabric of the Chicago Community, more-so the United States.

Chicago of all places is a City much like the US a City of Immigrants, first, second, third generation if not much more.

Guess what I am born in the US, learned about freedom of speech when I was in grammer school.

Ignorance breeds racism. The 1915 Armenian Genocide has relevance to the US, more so to in-humanity.

Like it or not the US is part of the International Community if you don’t like it go live on an island. 

Rich
Fresno, CA

Comment by Rich — May 6, 2007 @ 9:04 pm

to kathy:

I am really disgusted with your sick and racial comments about all immigrants leaving this county and letting you have your “American” way of living.

This country was built by immigrants. Some came here for better live some were forced to come here because of genocides and dictators within years.

Ignoring or closing eyes on other people’s sufferings and massacres would not make you better person.

This world and USA will be better and safer place to live with more involvement from any of us. Maybe then fewer immigrants would be forced to come and bother your “American” way of living.

Comment by Jack from San Francisco — May 7, 2007 @ 3:10 am

The main problem at LA Times is that its leadership is made of predominately Jewish Americans who are coconspirators with Turks in denying the Armenian genocide and blocking its recognition in the congress of United States.  Can anyone justify why 3 of the largest Jewish organizations (B’nai B’rith, ADL, JINSA) in the US are petitioning US congress to oppose the Armenian genocide resolution (see Jewish Telegraphic Agency 4/27/07).  Why are these Jewish Americans who are seemingly Holocaust survivors in bed with Fascist Turks in denying the Armenian genocide? Can Americans trust biased Jews at the helm of top news sources?  Are we really hearing what is in best interest of America or Israel?

Comment by danny from los angeles — May 7, 2007 @ 1:20 pm

Well even though Arax lives in fresno he writes for the LA times from time to time.

Armenians In Chicago

The first Armenians came to Chicago during the mid-1800s. Assisted by Protestant missionary teachers and ministers, single men immigrated to obtain an education or to pursue entrepreneurial endeavors in America, as well as to escape the oppression of the Ottoman Turks. Many planned to return home.

Many of the earliest Armenians in Chicago attained considerable success, most notably the entrepreneurs in the oriental rug trade, which was dominated by Armenians. Some merchants exhibited their rugs at the World’s Columbian Exposition in 1893. The Armenian Professional Club was founded in 1900, and a scholarship association, the Armenian Educational Society, in 1906.

By the early 1900s, as persecution of Armenians continued in Turkey, Armenians began to realize that their stay in Chicago would be permanent, and the size of the community increased. In 1894 and again in 1909, tens of thousands of Armenians were massacred by Turkish authorities. By 1924 more than 100,000 Armenians had fled to the United States.

Chicago’s small established Armenian community offered assistance to the refugees. The Chicago chapter of the Armenian Red Cross helped Armenians locate and assist fleeing family members and orphans. The Armenian Colonial Association had an office in Chicago, which helped newcomers to settle and get jobs, as did the Armenian General Benevolent Union (Chicago chapter founded 1906).

This new generation of Armenian immigrants was initially unable to repeat their predecessors’ rapid rise. Many served as laborers in the Pullman shops, the Union Stock Yard, or the steel mills of Waukegan, West Pullman, and downstate Granite City. Since most were still single men or orphans and could not speak English, they lived in boardinghouses and orphanages with other Armenians. These boardinghouses, as well as coffeehouses and communal bathhouses owned by Armenians, became comfortable centers for the new immigrant community, where men could gather on weekends to play backgammon or poker and eat keyma sandwiches.

By 1920, 1,200 Armenians, mostly male, lived in Chicago. With few women in the community, many Armenian men used contacts in other cities and back home to findso-called picture brides whom they married by arrangement. The new families settled in various neighborhoods, sharing houses on the North Side, as well as in Evanston, Waukegan, and Indiana Harbor. Between 30 and 60 families settled in West Pullman. Many tried to establish small businesses in West Pullman and elsewhere, especially as Armenian grocers, shoemakers, tailors, and rug merchants and repairers.

Protestant and Armenian Apostolic churches were founded early and became the focal points of the community. The first Parish Council of the Armenian Apostolic Church (an independent branch of the Eastern Orthodox church) was organized in Chicago in 1899 and officially designated as St. Gregory’s Parish in 1915. Other early Armenian Apostolic parishes included Holy Savior Church in West Pullman (founded 1924) and St. James in Evanston. Protestant Armenians established their first congregation in 1899 and officially founded the Armenian Congregational Church of Chicago in 1916.

Armenian social and patriotic societies, as well as cultural groups, were formed in the 1920s and 1930s. Patriotic societies included Engerayeen Miyootyoon (“friendship society,” West Pullman), Yeridasartaz Miyootyoon (“youth society,” West Pullman), and Chomakhlutzee Patriotic Association (Evanston). In 1922 the AGBU Shant Theatrical Group was formed, and in 1931 the Philo Arts Club became the Armenian National Chorus. Two independent Armenian schools were also established in the 1920s, in West Pullman and Indiana Harbor.

The incorporation of Armenia within the Soviet Union in 1920 factionalized the Chicago community. The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (ARF; or “Tashnag”), was a wing of the ruling party of Armenian independence from 1918 to 1920. The ARF also developed a youth organization called Tzeghagron, which later became the Armenian Youth Federation. The Armenian Hnchag Party published its newspaper, Yeridasart Hayastan, from its club at Adams and Halsted.The Harachteemagans (Armenian Progressive Party) became active in the 1930s and established a youth group, the Armenian Youth of America. The ARF favored an independent Armenian nation, while the latter two were sympathetic to Soviet rule.

In 1933, this political partisanship and controversy boiled over, producing a major rift in the Armenian Apostolic Church. Armenians were one of 30 ethnic groups invited to participate in the 1933 Century of Progress Exposition, and partisan political disagreements erupted over which flag would fly at the designated “Armenian Day”—the tricolor of independent Armenia, or the red flag of Soviet Armenia. A small “riot” at the fair eventually resulted in a court battle over possession of the Holy Savior Church in West Pullman. ARF supporters won control of Holy Savior, while the other faction seceded and in 1958 founded Saints Joachim and Anne Armenian Apostolic, aligned with the St. James and St. Gregory faction. Armenian All Saints Apostolic Church, aligned with the Holy Savior faction, was founded in 1943. Following the migration of many of its parishioners to the suburbs, All Saints moved in 1980 to a new building in Glenview. Sts. Joachim and Anne Parish moved to Palos Park in 1977 and then to Palos Heights in 1983. Holy Savior church closed in 1974, donating its estate to All Saints.

The political divide within the Armenian community of Chicago continued into the twenty-first century. Nevertheless, the Armenian community has remained united ethnically, coming together annually for cultural and ethnic events. The most important of these remains the community’s recollection every April 24 of the events of 1894 and 1909, which Armenians have defined as genocide at the hands of the Turks.

* KATHY check to see if your ansestors came before the Armenians, Dont be mad because we still kept our heritage and culture, might i remind you it is one of the oldest surviving!!!

Comment by Chris — May 7, 2007 @ 1:23 pm

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Armenians wants to use LA times for propaganda , newspapers can not used for any special interest group to spread certain agenda.
we thank him for been a good example to journalism.
Turkish-Jewish Americans
Thank you Douglas Frantz

Comment by M.Takman from Los Angeles — May 8, 2007 @ 12:28 am

ARMENIANS killed 500.000 Turks,after 700 years of friendship, they turned against their neighbors, sided with Russians and even today they are Russia’s best friend,and they won’t open their archives to study group,afraid of the real truth. just 15 years ago they have massacred 1000"s of azeri people in kohjali,and occupied their land,it was condemn by United Nations, now they think if they unite their people under the POOR ME PITY ME approach they think they will isolate Turkey and will ask for compensations($50 billion).they are surrounded by 110 million Turks but yet still they fill their children’s heads with hatred of Turks,they have formed their unity over hatred of Turks,like harant Dink said it is a poison in their blood.Armenians needs to focus on future and peace.

Comment by David Gold from Los Angeles — May 8, 2007 @ 12:34 am

Armenians are wrong,they use United States and France to pressure Turkey,it was 92 years ago and it was a war,it was not Genocide.and American news papers are not a tools for Armenian propoganda.
Thank you

Comment by Kelly from IRVINE/CALIFORNIA — May 8, 2007 @ 12:42 am

when I read (often poorly written and - frankly - pretty primitive like those above) remarks by Turkish ‘patriots’ (some shamefully posting multiple ‘opinions’ under ‘disguising’ names - like David Gold or Kelly ;) I feel hopeless. Where are the righteous, educated Turks - like Akcam, like Pamuk, like 100.000 attending the funeral of Hrant? Are Armenians doomed to live among (and most of the last several centuries - *under*) such hostile and backward neighbors? Is there hope that the ‘bright half’ of Turkey prevails, the country ends up in EU and embraces the civilized values? The postings above show the chances are pretty slim…

Comment by Maciej from Palo Alto, CA — May 8, 2007 @ 12:57 am

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to David Gold:

If it wasnt a genocide and the killings happened during the war then y did the Turkish government march people through the desert. Second of all armenia has opened its archives we are all still waiting for Turkey to let people see their archives. Armenia has many times stated that it does not want compensation, the armenian people simply want the Turkish state to admit to a horrible act its predecessors commited. Armenia does not want the 8 provinces in eastern turkey that are historically theirs, they just want the truth out there and that is the only way there will be peace. Armenia is illegally occupying 20% of azerbaijani territory but because that territory declared independence the same way armenia,georgia, and azerbaijan did so y is that situation different and the majority of the population of Nagorno-Karabakh(ARTSAKH) is armenian so it obviously should be part of armenian just like Naxicevan is part of azerbaijan(with no land connection).Also armenians dont blame turks that live in Turkey today it is obviously not there fault, but they are accomplices by denying it ever happened.
oh and one question how did u get 110 million turks when turkeys population is almost 70 million and azerbaijan is only 8 million that doesnt add up.

Comment by shariel from turlock, california — May 8, 2007 @ 1:33 am

M.Takman,

Armenians don’t want to use LA Times for propaganda. Actually it is vice versa… Armenians are trying to prevent pro Turkish propagandists (Doug Frantz) from blocking the truth. LA Times represents Los Angeles and Southern California first of all. LA Times has a lot of subscribers in Armenian Community. What do you think what will be the reaction within it’s subscribers when they find out about Mr. Frantz’s unethical actions?

What do you think will be the reaction of African Americans if another African American reporter’s article about civil rights will be killed by white editor with suspicious ties? What will be the reaction of Jewish community if the article about the Holocaust will be killed by chief editor?

Doug Frantz’s past in Turkey and his ties with Turkish Counsel puts his actions under reasonable suspicion!

Comment by Armen from Los Angeles — May 8, 2007 @ 3:13 am

Armenians so want to use the LA Times for “propaganda"… LOL thats why the government of TURKEY spent money denying the Genocide in a AD they PAID for in the LA TIMES, along with other NEWSPAPERS with wide readerships.

Doug Frantz should go back to Turkey (were he worked and made his connections with the “deep state” turks) and help deny the genocide there, cause everyday more and more turks are realizing the truth about the Armenian Genocide.

DAVID GOLD JR. <- YAH THATS NOT ME BUT IM GOING TO BE LIKE THE “DAVID GOLD”

Comment by David Gold Jr. from Turkey — May 9, 2007 @ 7:40 pm

Interesting comments. Here is one more.. I have heard so much about this genocide issue so much recently. I remember being at a Greek wedding where this little Armenian girl came to our group and told us not to visit Turkey since we could get killed. After this incident I noticed that many Armenian children are raised with hatred towards Turks. I decided to conduct my own research and tried the find the most neutral sources on this issue. As a fair-minded individual I was most influenced by the website called tallarmeniantale. Most Armenians are so hung up on this genocide issue that it has become a way of life for them. I know this from personal experiences since this is all they talk about. Most Armenians have nothing positive to say about Turkey which I beg to differ since I visited Turkey in 2001 with my spouse and I have to admit that I have never met such hospitable people and never had this great of a time. Having said that I have met many wonderful Armenian people and to this day I still one of my best friend who is a 91 year old man from Fresno and get recipes over the phone. I also played soccer for an Armenian team for 2 seasons having the time of my life with my Armenian teammates. My suggestion to any person (especially Armenians) is to conduct their own research and not to take the word of other people. I have time and time after experienced that if a person is Pro-Turkish or a denier of genocide, most Armenians assume that person must have changed their names or must have been paid by a Turkish government. What kind of absurd accusation is this to make? Let’s look at what this terrible country has done for my country in the past 50 to 60 years. Let’s not forget the thousands of Turkish troops who set a foot on Korean land to help thousands of American soldiers in the forgotten war of Korea. Let’s not forget that Turkey, despite putting its economy in danger, helped this country bomb Saddam’s armies by allowing the jet fighter planes to take off from its American bases in Incirlik, Turkey. Let’s not forget that this country that is so terrible has been a member of NATO for many years. Let’s not forget that Turkey gave women the right to vote, thanks to Ataturk, in 1920s, ahead of many westernized nations today. I would suggest that Armenian-Americans start caring for the interests of United States first, their own, selfish interests second. Let’s not forget the millions of American dollars given to Armenia simply because they share the same religion while it has not sacrificed one Armenian soldier to this day to help United States of America. Let’s not forget ASALA, the Armenian terrorist organization and the number of Turkish diplomats and other innocents killed by them in the name of this so called genocide. So people go on and do your own research about whether Turks and Turkey are such terrible words or not and whether the genocide really occurred or not. After all this is what any fair-minded and just individual would want to do if one was curious enough to crack the door open..
Sincerely,
Bryan Flanagan.

Comment by Bryan Flanagan from Columbia, MO — May 19, 2007 @ 3:09 pm

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“As a fair-minded individual I was most influenced by the website called tallarmeniantale” :))) this is the most favorit site of Turkish deniers, funded by the Turkish government… “Bryan Flanagan”? whom you are trying to fool, you idiot?!

Comment by Robert from San Jose, CA — May 19, 2007 @ 3:35 pm

This Robert guy is a great example of how I get attacked when I simply state my opinion. I get called an idiot who is trying to fool people. Why can’t a person named Bryan Flanagan write such comments and have the opinion that is stated up above? Obviously this Robert guy finds it impossible to believe and he calls me a denier simply because I admired the way this particular website is put together. I wonder he even spent 10 minutes to read what the content is like. Unlike many Armenian websites tallarmeniantale website actually has a lot of positives to say about Armenians. The person who put it together is not funded by the Turkish Government as I witness everytime there is a nonTurkish person puts something together that doesn’t share similar beliefs as fanatic Armenians simply because that person was curious enough to find out what this whole genocide issue is all about such as a Good Irish-American Sam Weems (God Bless his soul) is right away, so quickly blamed for being funded by the Turkish Government. Robert, honestly have you ever read what is on that website? I have. Have you ever checked multiple sources to come to the conclusion that this person is funded by any government? I have. Have you checked to see if anything on that website is true or untrue by conducting a lengthy research on issues the website talks about? I have. Do you know why I have done all this? Not because I believe there was never a genocide or not because I believe there was a genocide. I, as an American citizen got tired of hearing all this Armenian claims and demanding my government to accept the fact that there was a genocide (even if this meant hurting the relations between Turkey and United States which I believe most Armenians would love to happen despite the negative consequences that United States might have to face such as the closing of the US bases in Turkey) so I decided to spend time to find out sources that I thought were factbased. This website I found is the closest to factbased information. So Robert tell me again why am I an idiot? Am I an idiot simply because I state my opinion and you don’t like it or is it because you truly think I lack some intelligence which I think this assumption would put you in the position of an idiot since you don’t know much about me. After spending years on conducting a fair research on this issue I came to the conclusion that genocide didn’t occur but many Armenians did lose their lives along with many Turks as a result of partnering with an enemy called Russia at the time.

Comment by Bryan Flanagan from Columbia, MO — May 19, 2007 @ 5:12 pm

Maciej, how come the only educated Turks according to you are the ones either agreeing with your cause (Akcam and Pamuk) or the ones attended Hrant’s funeral? What about the many other educated Turks? This is another great example of how unfair-minded some people can be choosing only the ones contributing to their benefit. Another example is disregarding the damage this genocide issue could bring upon the relations between US and Turkey and still being selfish. Armenians have always been Armenians first, Americans second..

Comment by Bryan Flanagan from Columbia, MO — May 19, 2007 @ 5:20 pm

Re: Bryan Flanagan post

Great research reading an obscure website called tallarmeniantale. Try reading books, your also assuming that Armenians do not read books on Armenian genocide? Justin McCarthy and other so-called historians lack credibility when you find out they have been paid and well treated in Turkey for an Armenian denialist perspective of history. 

You also mention reasons surrounding the Armenian genocide, lets make this clear. There is no justification for killing innocent civilian populations.

Also I do have sympathy for the Armenian children for being defensive toward Turks, but I always make clear that it is the Turkish government and there agents of denial who are the ones who advocate inhumanity by denial.

Another lesson learned from all this is that governements pit people against oneanother for various reasons greed, land, resources, etc… For example the US citizens were duped into believing for a time that Iraqi’s attacked us on 9/11 (statistics showed this) also that weapons of mass destruction was in the hands of Sadam Husain, it was all a scam the US governement is in it for the oil and give profits to corporations who profit from war.

In short it is the Turkish Government and the agents of denial that are double killing the victims of genocide, the others may likely be just ignorant of the issue.

Comment by Rich — May 19, 2007 @ 7:59 pm

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Hey Rich, I am dying to know. Where do you find the facts on someone getting paid by the Turkish Government? Are these fact proven documents available on the net somewhere bro or are you just assuming that they must be getting paid since they are not Turkish and they are not believers of this genocide? Just curious.. Speaking of reading books, what do you think about Sam Weems’ (Irish-American writer) books? How many books have you read that were written by Non-Armenian authors? Just curious.. Also, I hardly see any comments regarding the US-Turkey relations and how much Turkey has helped US throughout the years. Any comments on Armenians being Armenians FIRST and Americans second? By the way can anyone who has visited the tallarmeniantale website give me one reason why I shouldn’t believe anything that is mentioned on there? I have conducted my research about the website’s contents to see if things mentioned are true on there and whoever set that site up definitely put their work in. The website provides the reader with facts, the messenger and whether they were paid or not matters none, it is the message that matters. At least that’s what I care about because I am not seeking anyone to point a finger at or attack, I am simply seeking the information that is factbased and unbiased unlike many Armenian websites. It is very typical that anyone who denies genocide gets cursed on those websites. I mean I would like to know the statistics of how many of these people actually conducted their own lengthy, unbiased research on this issue compared to how many are simply raised with being told that Turks killed 1,5 million Armenians some 100 years ago? I would love to know the ratio. My guess is 90% of the people believe there was a genocide based on what they heard. I mean look at Midnight Express, the movie which came out in 70s and the American nation got to know what Turks were like which is very intended purpose of the Armenians at the time. Well here is a good example of why you should always search answers with a fair-mind and an open heart. I came across an interview with Billy Hayes on youtube about the movie. Anyone curious, just get on youtube and watch what he has to say about so called monster, barbarian Turks.. This is just one example of many things I learned from a valuable website called http://www.tallarmeniantale.com Anyone is free to read what is said on this website and find out whether it is true or not as long as one is willing to take the time to do so. I also learned that Antonio Banderas was planning on playing the role of Ataturk in an Hollywood movie until him and his wife Melanie Griffith received thousands of threat letters. So anyone says that this website is obscure doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Like I said all you need is an open and a fair mind and time to gain some very valuable information from that website..

Comment by Bryan Flanagan from Columbia, MO — May 19, 2007 @ 10:25 pm

I see people came down hard on kathy from Chicagoland, charging her with being “racial,” but she’s absolutely correct. When she wrote “Take all your grief, your angst, your anger at your former home,” she wasn’t saying Americans can’t have ethnic pride; she’s saying be positive, not negative. What she is saying is, do not let your original nationality supersede your obligation to America. Turkey is an important ally of the USA, but Armenians from America only care about the genocide that is so dear to them-- even if this supposed genocide is not in America’s national interests.

Jack responded by writing, “Ignoring or closing eyes on other people’s sufferings and massacres would not make you better person.” How ridiculous! Armenians have made a business out of victimhood, but it’s not like they are the only people in the world to have historically suffered. David Gold wrote Armenians killed 500,000 Turks in WWI, which is a fact; few know because we don’t like to see Turks as victims, and Turks don’t advertise their tragedies. What are we going to do, keep dwelling on the countless other episodes of historical injustices, increasing our hatred, instead of looking to tomorrow? (The key word is “dwelling”; this is not to say injustices ought to be ignored, but too many Armenians harbor an unhealty obsession, and they go out of their way to try and get non-Armenians to share in their misery.)

Maciej composed a peculiar note as well, writing, “Are Armenians doomed to live among… such hostile and backward neighbors?” If Turks were hostile, how could Armenians have prospered within the Ottoman Empire (and its predecessor, the Seljuks) for six-seven centuries? These were during the days when minorities were truly persecuted in the “civilized” nations of Europe. (How did Muslims fare in France and England? They were little more than slaves.) Armenia, soon after its formation in 1918 as a result of the Russian revolution, attacked neighbors Georgia and Azerbaijan in 1918-19, and provoked Turkey into a third war in 1920. (Read the 1923 manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, Armenia’s first prime minister, for the latter example.) Soon after the Cold War fell, Armenia once again displayed its aggressiveness in Karabakh, in the 1990s (massacring many innocents in the process, as well). This must be an example of a nation that is NOT hostile and NOT backward, according to Maciej, and must be such a utopia that Armenians around the world are going back to their homeland in record numbers. (Instead, Armenia has been suffering a terrible population drain. Many thousands are ironically moving to Turkey, to live better lives.)

Comment by Scanny from USA — May 20, 2007 @ 3:59 am

Shariel wrote: “If it wasnt a genocide and the killings happened during the war then y did the Turkish government march people through the desert.”

This is “Armenian genocide 101.” The Armenians rebelled. There were uprisings all over (Van, Bitlis, Sivas, etc.) right when the Ottoman Empire was in for the fight of its life. No nation on earth would tolerate a belligerent part of the population to wreak havoc especially when the nation’s existence is at stake. The Ottomans’ answer was to resettle the Armenians elsewhere in the nation, until the danger passed. (Many Armenians were already returning to their homes before the war ended. In the years ahead, many decided against staying.) The nation was bankrupt, and there was no mass transportation from the east. Everyone had to march when they needed to get somewhere, including the soldiers. The Mesopotamian region is historically known as the Fertile Crescent; it’s not correct to write the Armenians’ destination was “the desert,” making those who don’t know better think that Armenians were forced into sand dunes. The idea was to integrate Armenians into different villages and cities, as long as they didn’t exceed 10% of the population. Most died of famine and disease, as was the fate of most of the nearly 3 million other Ottomans who died, the ones we never hear about. When massacres occurred, the Ottoman authorities took steps to minimize the chances of such taking place again, such as changing routes. Over 1,600 who committed crimes against Armenians (mostly theft) were tried DURING the war, and dozens were executed.

“Second of all armenia has opened its archives we are all still waiting for Turkey to let people see their archives.”

The reverse is true. Shame on this person for stating an outright falsehood. It is Turkey that has opened its archives. The archives of Armenia, and the A.R.F. offices in Massachusetts, are closed to outsiders.

“Armenia does not want the 8 provinces in eastern turkey that are historically theirs”

Per treaties Armenia has signed, Armenia does not even have a right to Turkish territory, but that doesn’t stop Armenia from referring to these areas as “Western Armenia.” And there is no proof about the historical ownership. Armenians did not originate from these areas; they migrated from other parts of the world, most likely the Balkans, just as countless other tribes who passed through this neighborhood over the centuries. Armenians call themselves “Haiks,” suggesting they simply took the name of this part of the world for themselves, “borrowing” also the history of others that had preceded them, mainly the Urartians. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urartu) When the Turks took over these lands, let’s not forget it was not the Armenians who were the owners; it was the Byzantines.

“the armenian people simply want the Turkish state to admit to a horrible act its predecessors commited.”

Nobody disputes Armenians were massacred by lawless forces; what is at issue is whether the Ottoman government ordered an extermination policy. Stands to reason if they had, the majority of Armenians under Ottoman control could not have survived. If this supposed genocide is unproven, then there is nothing to admit to. Turks are not harping on the Armenians to do the same, but if Armenians wish to be honorable, it is time Armenians admit the really horrible crimes and mass murders they committed, which some of their Russian and French allies of the period are on record for having eyewitnessed.

“Armenia is illegally occupying 20% of azerbaijani territory but because that territory declared independence… so it obviously should be part of armenian”

Almost a million Azeris were chased away from their homes, once the Armenians embarked on their familiar tactic of ethnic cleansing. Did these Azeris have a voice, when “that territory declared independence”?

“Also armenians dont blame turks that live in Turkey today it is obviously not there fault, but they are accomplices by denying it ever happened.”

Visits to Armenian forums make it clear that many hate-conditioned Armenians blame Turks for just about every ill under the sun. And once again, what are these “accomplices” denying? They are not denying Armenians suffered a horrible experience, and that some were massacred, at a time when everyone was horribly suffering. What is being denied is a genocide, because a genocide did not occur. There is a lot of hateful hearsay, a lot of speculative theories, a few forgeries, but there is simply no factual proof. Instead of looking for blame for a crime that did not occur, it is time Armenians looked at the horrible crimes their forefathers committed, instead. Where are the Armenians who have apologized for these crimes?

Comment by Scanny — May 20, 2007 @ 4:41 am

To Scanny:

Y am i supposed to believe that armenians participated in ethnic cleansing but turks didnt. if everything about armenians u said is true then how come no one in the world speaks of it, what happened in Nagorno-karabakh is a sad story for both people. They both did some things they should not have done “both”!!!!  Armenians might have migrated to the area and just took the land but thats the case with turkey all turkic tribes and most other ethinicities. also it is called the armenian genocide but nobody ever talks about how the turks killed an additional 750,000 assyrians and countless greeks in an attempt to create a pure turkish country. and like i said in my first comment i do not blame turks that live in turkey today i just blame their government for denying, armenians do not want reparations or land back they just want the truth.

And the story with nagorno-karabakh is when the former soviet republics declared their independence so did Nagorno-karabakh and with a majority armenian population the azerbaijanis might not have had a voice in this declaration but minorities usually never do. So this soviet republic declared independence as did azerbaijan, armenia, georgia and so on. Y if they all got independence was nagorno denyied this right, y was it occupied by azerbaijan. So it is not hard to understand y the armenians from armenia decided to help their brothers in nagorno become independent. Second of all saying that armenia is a hostile country is completely false. If your two out of four of ur neighbors are turkic and u have historical problems over land and resources with these neighbors, and twice or three times before u were invaded occupided or lost 70% of ur country wouldnt u be hostile too?like i said turkey to this day occupies 6 to 8 “historically” armenian provinces in western turkey and the treaties u mentioned were never signed by armenia they were either signed by russia or the persian empire for armenia so i dont think those treaties are valid. i can name u the provinces too if u would like that and then u can go check everyone of them separately and see who built the major cities in those provinces before the turks ever lived in those areas. just as an example the cities of VAN, TRABIZOND AND ADANA (ADANA being a former capital of GREATER ARMENIA)

Comment by Shariel from Turlock, CA — May 20, 2007 @ 2:21 pm

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